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Hey there. Welcome to episode 174 of The Girl Means Business podcast. Today we are going to be talking all about branding. This is something that I get really excited about. It’s one of those things I kind of geek out about in my business. I think branding is so important and when I first started my business, my idea of branding was a really cute logo, maybe a nice website, but I had really no clue what branding was or what it meant. And over the last several years, I have really kind of grown to appreciate a really great brand. It’s one of those sort of glass shattering moments of once you understand what makes a brand really great, you start to notice when a brand is doing something really well, when they’re being smart and strategic, but you also kind of notice when brands are missing the mark a little bit. So it’s a catch way too. But it’s kind of fun to have sort of an insider perspective and be able to look at a brand and go, oh, they’re really killing it, or be able to look at one and go, oh, you know, they’re missing this piece and being able to identify what that piece is because you’ve done it in your own business. So I’m excited to dive into our conversation today. Now, if you missed last week’s episode, I encourage you to hit pause for just a second or maybe go listen.

Speaker B: To it after you listen to this.

Speaker A: Episode, because last week’s episode, episode 173, was all about infusing your personality into your brand, which I think is a really big part of your brand. You are your business, you are the face of your business. Unless you are running this massive corporation, you are the person that people are going to be connecting with. When someone inquires about your products or your services or places an order or books a service with you, it’s you who’s going to be interacting with them. So it’s important that you infuse your personality into that so that your audience gets to know you. So if you haven’t listened to the episode yet, make sure you go back and listen to episode 173. I am really excited to introduce you to our guest today. Lisa Haggis helps service based entrepreneurs position their business as one of a kind in their field for higher visibility, impact and earning potential. She leverages 18 years of experience in marketing and business strategy and she’s committed to cracking the code on what makes a business immediately interesting and worth mentioning now. Hence, it begins with having something original to say. We’ll get into that in our conversation today. She’s the founder of Realize Your Brand, a high touch business consultancy and the creator of the substantial branding method, an approach that transforms your growing business into the legacy level brand that you uniquely are meant to create. We had a great conversation around branding. I cannot wait for you to meet her. She’s an incredible source of information and knowledge. So let’s, uh, jump into my conversation with Lisa.

Speaker B: Hi, Lisa. Welcome to the Growing Business Podcast. Thank you so much for being here today.

Speaker C: Thank you, Kendra. It’s so awesome to be here.

Speaker B: Well, I’m excited to chat with you. We’re going to get all into branding in our business, but I want you to introduce yourself and talk a little bit about who you are, what you do. Kind of give us a little version of your story.

Speaker C: Great. Yeah. So I am the founder of Real Life, your brand. Uh, I’m a brand strategist and a Clarity Advisor to my clients. I help them get crystal clear on who they are and the business that they’re building so that they can put it into an unrepeatable brand that makes marketing a lot easier for them.

Speaker B: Nice. I love that clarity advisor. I haven’t heard that one before. So we’re going to get all into the nitty gritty. But tell me sort of in the simplest terms what branding means to you, because I think a lot of people have an idea of what it is, but a lot of people also have their own version of it. So what is it to you?

Speaker C: Yeah, well, so I’ll share that my background was in marketing. And so that, I think, really informs why branding matters to me. Because in the marketing world, you’re trying to get in front of people. You’re trying to get their attention, get them to buy your things, um, and really connect. And you’re putting your offers and your message and your business in front of them. And branding is making sure that the things you’re putting in front of them are actually enticing, compelling, what they’re looking for, unique, um, and original. And so to me, branding is all of those core decisions that you make right at the essence of your business. To say, this is who we are, this is what we stand for, this is the change we’re making, this is how we’re doing it, this is who we’re doing it for. And so it is all of those critical pieces that really form the foundation for who you are to people, what they expect from you, why they would choose you, and why they would recommend you to somebody else.

Speaker B: No, I love that description. And for someone I’ve been in business for myself for a decade now, in various ways, in shapes and forms. But now it makes sense to me. Like, I can wrap my brain around that. But when I was first starting a business that wasn’t even sort of on my radar of what branding meant, I think a lot of people think of brand as like, oh, it’s my logo, it’s my colors, it’s my font. And that’s, I think, a piece of it. But you’re saying it’s a much deeper, broader piece than just the sort of aesthetics of what we show.

Speaker C: Yes. Yes. Because really what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to get people to get an instant sense of why they can trust you, why they would choose you. You’re trying to draw people in. And a logo doesn’t really do that. Nobody recommends a service or product to somebody else because of the logo or colors. They recommend it because of the way that company made them feel, the way that that product was something they hadn’t seen before or, like, it’s just stories worth telling. And so it’s that innately interesting, like, the interest factor at the core of the business that people are saying, hey, I’ve never seen this, or, you got to check this out. And that takes, um, intention, like, as you’re kind of designing or engineering what your actual business is, that’s when you’re building your brand.

Speaker B: So I’m going back in my mind to when I first started my business. My first business was a photography business. And I think back to kind of that moment when I went from, okay, this is just a hobby I do for fun, and maybe people kind of pay me every once in a while to do a photo shoot too. I’m starting a business, and everything you’re saying would feel very overwhelming to me at that point in my business. So how can we kind of simplify that for someone who is maybe like, oh, that sounds really big and broad and scary? Like, how can we kind of make it a little less scary?

Speaker C: Yes. Thank you. I don’t want this to be scary. Let’s break it down. So, um, the very first thing is to remember that the pieces are always the same. You need to remember who you’re serving, and you need to know what problems you’re solving for that person. And so that never changes. That is the key to succeeding in business. I call this value. You need to understand the value you provide to people. And so, as a photographer, if it’s brand photography, you’re helping them grow their business. You’re helping them make money. Like, that stuff is very solid, concrete foundational. Um, but where you go next as a business owner and it doesn’t matter what size is your unique point of view on how to help them make that happen. And so, again, like, if you’re a brand photographer, you have your own opinions, your own beliefs and values about what it means to help a client be seen through their photography, connect through their photography. There are things that you know and that matter to you about how you want to make that happen for your clients. That’s the stuff that’s going to set you apart. To say maybe, um, you believe that I’ve, um, worked with a photographer and she had this beautiful statement that nothing is more beautiful than real life and that stand for that and letting it kind of actually shine through. And how she, um, captures the essence of her clients, uh, and also the experience that she’s like making sure that you know what you stand for and your unique point of view and then making sure it’s showing up in the experience, it’s showing up in your messaging, it’s showing up in your offerings. And it can be simple. Uh, there’s no business that’s too small to really take a stand for how you see things differently and make sure that you’re doing things a little bit differently because of it, instead of just following kind of the norm and the way everybody else does it.

Speaker B: So I’m going to play devil’s advocate for a second just to kind of get some people’s wheels turning. So the idea of photography, that one I’m a little more versed in. So I’m going to step out of that for a little while and I’m going to say, let’s say someone listening is like, okay, I make custom stationery and I sell it on Etsy. What does it matter what my personal views or values or opinions are if I’m just creating this, like, stationary and sending it to whoever needs it?

Speaker C: I love that. So stationery could very easily become a commodity. What’s the difference between this notebook and this notebook and this pen or pad of paper or whatever? And so in an instance like that, it’s even so much more important that you build more story around your products so that people aren’t just seeing a notebook, they’re seeing who they want to become in that notebook. And the way that you tell, uh, that story, like, that this notebook is about becoming a certain kind of person is by taking a stand, by knowing who you’re talking to. Like, maybe your stationery is specifically for mothers and you want your stationery to actually feel like a moment of pause and a deep breath for mothers. And you want to believe that and like your beliefs, you’re taking a stand that everybody deserves a break, everybody deserves a beautiful moment just to themselves. You can see how some of the kind of ideals and perspectives could come out and what that might end up looking like. If you’ve got a physical product, it’s beautiful because you can put that into the design. You can put little messages in it. Your marketing, the packaging that it actually comes in could have a little notes like, hey, you’re doing amazing. And so it’s about knowing what message you really want to give to those people who you’ve chosen are your people who are going to be receiving your product, using your product and changing their lives through the use of your product.

Speaker B: So you mentioned kind of knowing who your product is for product or service. You don’t have to be a product base for this to apply, but I want to kind of stick with the idea of the stationery just because we started with that. And I say this a lot. I talk about this a lot of the podcasts on social media is one of the first things I do with any of my coaching clients, is you have to be very, like you said earlier, crystal clear. Get clarity around who it is, your audience or who are you trying to attract, who are you trying to serve? And I know when I started my business, this is a struggle, because I was like, well, I take pictures. Like, I’ll take pictures of anybody. And there was a time in my business where I literally took pictures of people’s pet. I just didn’t have this ideal version of who I was working for or who I wanted to work for. But I think that now, and I have more clarity around this. Knowing who your business is designed for is such a key factor, because the stationary idea, if you’re making stationary, like you said, for moms who need kind of a break in their day, they want to feel in the chaos of their house, the chaos of the carpool and children’s activities and playrooms and toys. They want something that feels clean and simple and organized or whatever. Maybe it’s a Todo list notepad, or maybe it’s, like you said, an organizer notebook. And if that can bring some calm to their chaos, that’s very different branding and messaging than if you are speaking to maybe like, a corporate woman who needs it more for her correspondence with her clients or taking notes in meetings. Um, that’s two very different people. So how can we really narrow down who our audience is if we’re still in that phase of, I don’t know who I want to attract, um, I don’t know who my audience is or the fear zone of I don’t want to eliminate, um, the possibility of a corporate woman coming and buying my stationary when I’m really targeting moms. How can we kind of get clarity around that without feeling that fear?

Speaker C: Yeah, well, the first thing is you get to choose. A lot of times, I think, um, this kind of feels like, um, a journey where you need to get to your one answer, where it’s like, there’s only one option out there that’s going to lead to success, and that’s going to be right for me and my business. But that’s not really true. You get to choose. You get to choose the audience that you’re going to want to wake, um, up for each day and make a difference for. And so it really is a choice. And so what’s happening most, um, of the time is we’re avoiding the choice. Um, and we’re telling ourselves it’s not hurting us because we’re staying, you know, up high and trying to talk to everybody. But like, the example you just gave, um, I really like I like that because it illustrates something. If you try to please them both, you’re actually not really serving either of them to the fullest. And so often this talk about finding your target market or your ideal client, it sounds like it’s for, um, you. So it’s going to help you market to them. And that’s great, but it’s actually for them. Because if you’re trying to make your offerings relevant to everybody, then you’re going to have an offering that isn’t as transformational or effective or useful to any of the people you’re serving. And you don’t want that. It’s not going to result in business success because you’re not going to be getting the referrals and the rating customers. But I love that example. It really illustrates why I do this. And there’s a few things that I like to say. The first is, who cares about what you care about? And so often, people jump, um, right to demographics, income, um, things like that. Uh, what do you care about most? So that if you want to show up as yourself and talk about things that matters to you, your people, um, the people who you have built your offerings for and your business for are the same, who are going to be resonating with that content. Because you might be taking a stand for women’s rights or feminism, but if you’ve built your, um, business for a completely different audience, that those kinds of, like that kind of, uh, value based messaging is going to turn them off, then you’ve got a real mismatch. So your values and what you care about, what you want to talk about, and how you want to connect with people, that’s always, I think, number, um, one. And that’s a psychographic or like a behavioral kind of segmentation versus the demographic.

Speaker B: Well, can I pause, um, because I’ve had this question brought up a couple of times with coaching clients. I see it on Facebook a lot, where people are like, what if? Because I always say you do have to have a personal connection, in my opinion, to your audience that you’re trying to target, because otherwise you’re just going to like you said, you’re going to be talking about one thing, and they’re going to be looking for something different. There’s going to be a disconnect. But I hear people all the time say, what if I’m not my ideal client? What if I’m not that person? What if we’re very different? My opinion is there has to be something that connects you. And you may have different demographics, so you may live in a different place. You may have a different income level. I live in the country on two acres, but I have a coaching client who lives in the middle of the city in a downtown apartment. That’s a demographic that doesn’t necessarily have to be the same. But like you said, the psychographics, the behavioral, things like those have to be somewhat connected. Do you agree?

Speaker C: If you want your brand to be authentic, yes. And you want your brand to be authentic. So, yes, because there are brands, um, out there that have built up a personality, uh, messaging, et cetera, that resonates with a specific kind of client that possibly, um, is all fabricated. And these might be large brands with teams that are kind of showing up to create that personality and that kind of character behind the brand. Uh, but if it’s working, I guarantee you that brand is somehow cultivating those values within the company. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be resonating, it wouldn’t be connecting, because people only connect when they feel like something is genuine and authentic. And so, yeah, if you are a, um, founder and entrepreneur, and whether or not you’re the face of your business, you don’t have to be. You’re still the best source for those really interesting raw materials that your brand will be made up of. And so, like, values so your values should really determine who you want your clients to be.

Speaker B: Yeah, I completely agree. I always like to hear and make sure other people see what other people’s opinions are, because I’m open to maybe I’m not always on the right track, but I think we both agree that you have to have something that resonates. Otherwise, and I see this a lot, too, where people will try to create this persona, like you said, of who they think their audience or who they think, um, their product or services for, and eventually it fizzles out because they can’t keep up this facade of the person they think their audience wants. That’s where we got the whole era of instagram that was so polished and perfected and all the things. And then people were like, no, I want to see real. I want to see you with a messy bun and no makeup on talking to me. Not necessarily the mom who’s done up every day, and her kitchen is perfect, and her kids are all matching outfits. That’s not real life. You have to have, like you said, the values and the connection that go with who it is you’re trying to attract.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: So let’s talk about how that translates into the messaging, because I also think there are people who are like, okay, I got it. I know who my audience is. I know who she is, or whatever. I’m clear on that. But how does that translate into what I put out into the world?

Speaker C: Yeah. So I kind of started a little back about talking about how there’s value. Right. And so I have, like, my model for branding is kind of the three different areas that you need to cover with your messaging, with just your existence as a business. And value is right in the center. So some of your messaging is telling people how you can help them. So, you know, here’s the problem you’re having here’s. The outcomes we can create here’s. Some of the benefits of those outcomes are the smaller wins and making sure that you’re actually getting them excited about what will happen if they buy from you. That’s just, like, straight to the point marketing. And that’s value meaning is the next piece. And that’s a lot of what we were just talking about that’s getting deeper, sharing with people what you believe in, sharing with people your vision for the world and how you like, kind of your deeper wish for them and connecting with them in that way. And so that’s content that lend messaging that should be out there, like, hey, this matters, because this and what is that deeper reason why this matters? And then the last piece is originality. And that’s when you’re getting out there and you’re giving them those beliefs and opinions that we talked about that they haven’t necessarily heard anywhere else. But that’s missing information as to either why they’re not getting what they want or why they don’t understand, um, the value in what you’re providing. So, for example, for stationery, maybe somebody, um, thinks digital is better. Um, and you really strongly you’ve tried both. You have evidence. Maybe you’re actually researching or testing. You have information to say, hey, guys, women actually digital is what is causing you to be completely unproductive. That’s an example of a piece of your message that would be originality, that would make a case for why, um, your stationary it’s not just your stationary. It’s all stationary, all stationary benefits. But because you’re the one saying it, people are going to look at your stationery. And so that’s that originality piece, which is really the part that a lot of people ask me about, because there’s a lot of great resources out there on, um, how to build your brand promise and tell people what you can do and to build your purpose and whatever. But the way that people are told they need to stand out, that’s my piece of the originality puzzle is, uh, like, it’s not your personality. Uh, it’s not that you need to be the loudest or it’s not your logo or your colors. It’s actually your point of view. And start with that and find out what it is you have to say that they haven’t heard before about your industry. Uh.

Speaker B: And this is just coming from the peoplepleaser version of me, the one I’m really trying to work through, but it’s a little bit scary to want to say, like, you should be the one to stand up and speak out about something that you find, because, again, I’ll use the station example. If all these other people are saying, digital is the way to go, and you’re going the other direction, saying, no, actually a pen and paper planner, or having like a written out todo list that you put in your purse and take the grocery store for your grocery list or whatever you can physically check things off of for your to do list, that’s the way to go. That can feel a little bit intimidating because now you are standing up and kind of saying like, no, I think something different. So do you have any tips or advice for people who are kind of like me, who are like, I don’t really want to buck the system, but I do want, um, to have my own thoughts put um, in there as well.

Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. So the first is to understand that if you’re going to be taking that stand, you’re doing it from a place of service. And um. So you might hear an example. And it might sound really controversial and scary. But when you find your message. Uh. I call it your revolutionary message. When you find yours. Um. It’s not going to feel scary in the same way it’ll still feel scary because putting yourself out there is scary. But it’s going to feel like you have no choice because it is service for you to show up and share this information. And the other thing that I want to say is that’s also why it’s so important to be clear on who you’re serving. Because big, broad statements like that often aren’t going to be true for everybody. So to say that Physical Notebook is going to win out over digital, uh, every time, it’s probably going to mean that you’re not right. But if you know that your audience are moms on the go and that, um, pulling up their phone is going to get them distracted and you’ve actually worked with enough or experienced enough in your life and in your business that you have some evidence of this that you have seen, then you can say to that specific audience, this is the piece you’re missing. Here’s why you want to use physical, because you’re going to open it and nothing else is going to distract you. Your phone is different. And so you kind of need that bit of a triangle between who the audience is, what they’re trying to accomplish, and then that kind of statement that you’re taking for how this audience is best going to accomplish that thing.

Speaker B: Yeah, that’s so good. If anybody is starting a planner company, let me know because this is the perfect research. We’re getting real time brain dumped here because I literally have my paper planner sitting next to me right now open with my daily todo list and then my ongoing, like, running to do list. And I know exactly what you said. If I put this in my phone, either A, I would forget about it and not check it. And two weeks from now, I’d open up that app and be like, oh yeah, I was supposed to do that one thing two weeks ago, or which has happened a million times. I opened my phone fully prepared. I’m going to go to this app.

Speaker A: And look at my to do list.

Speaker B: Or my calendar, and the next thing I know, I’m in Instagram for 30 minutes, and I’m like, I closed the phone and I’m like, oh, yeah, I was supposed to be doing something else. So it is very true, and I definitely think this comes back to the idea that you have to know your audience so well, which means you have to have some kind of personal connection to who they are in order to understand them, or be willing, I guess, to put in all, um, the research. But I personally think it helps to have that personal connection to who your audience is yeah.

Speaker C: And to your craft. If you’ve just started a business in a field that you don’t really care about, but because you thought you could make money in it, you’re not going to be as dedicated to kind of immersing yourself in the whole world of it, to kind of see these things that other people aren’t seeing. But that’s why I like to say it’s like, it kind of requires a bit of obsession. I am obsessed with what makes businesses interesting, and so I see things because of that obsession. I’m immersed in it. I like and sleep, um, and breathe it. And so I feel like that’s a helpful ingredient. If you want to find your unique point of view, you have to actually really care about what it is you’re doing.

Speaker B: Well, I think, yeah, on the flip side, that’s how you can maybe tell the other way around that this isn’t the best fit for you. Because if you aren’t I’m not saying you have to think about it all day, every day, but if you’re not excited about what you do, if you’re not passionate about it, if you don’t stay up till the middle of the night thinking of ideas or whatever, then this might be a sign that you need to make a Pivot of some kind. I know I did a couple of network marketing programs, um, back in the day when I was teaching, and I was trying to figure out what it is I could do to make some extra money. And one of them was a skincare brand. And I have always loved skincare. I’ve always been someone who, like, I wanted to go into dermatology at one point. I was like, this is perfect. But I got into it and realized really quickly, I was like, I’m not passionate about it. I enjoy it myself, but it’s not something I want to I’m not passionate about enough that I can convince somebody else or share it with other people in a super exciting way. And so I definitely like that kind of idea that you have to have this passion behind what. You do in order for it to be it comes across. It comes across in everything that you do. So before we kind of get things wrapped up, because I don’t want to take up too much of your time here, but we talked about who you serve, kind of what the problem is that you serve your unique point of view. Um, you also mentioned, like, building story around your brand. Um, and I love this idea. One of my favorite books of all time that I recommend to everybody is Building a Story Brand with Donald Miller. Love that book. I’ve read a couple of other ones, like Stories That Stick and things like that. So I love the idea of storytelling in theory. I’m not so great at putting it into practice, so I would love to know what tips or thoughts or what you have around that idea.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, one of the tips that I like to share is to think back to kind of moments or periods of high emotion, um, in your own kind of I’m trying not to say story. So if you kind of go back and you think, what are the things that really are still sticking with me in terms of I either was scared or I was heartbroken, or I was so, uh, proud of myself. The emotions are really good kind of markers in your own life to find things that other people will also find engaging. And then you don’t have to necessarily, um, tie them right into, like, a perfect bow around your own brand or the outcome that you provide, um, for people or anything like that. Because stories can also just be a great way to either kind of convey, um, your values and kind of why you care about certain things. They’re also great for building that know, like, trust factor. And so I think it’s about knowing which stories are the ones that are the absolute core to the way that you do things in business. So I have a story that I tell about being a marketing person and having to market businesses that had nothing unique about them. And that is, like, a core story that I use to kind of share why it’s so important to me to create an interesting business so that marketing can just be telling the truth. And so that’s, like, really core to my brand. But then I’ll have other supplementary, um, stories that are really just about more about what’s made me me about being let go and needing to kind of take all of these papers, um, off of my desk that the day before I thought were the most important thing in the world. And really learning, like, nobody gets to waste my time. That’s not really core to the outcome I create for clients or anything like that. But it formed one of my values, which is life well spent and, like, spending my time with purposeful, intention, and not sweating all of the small stuff or allowing other people’s false sense of urgency to kind of come into my sense of peace. And so not related to my core, core thing, but, um, related to who I am and still very likely to connect with my ideal clients who value those same things. And so emotions, your core story, and then those things that you know, will kind of signal to people who you are so that you can use those stories to help the right people feel attracted and the wrong people know that you’re not for them.

Speaker B: I like how you broke that down, by the way. Because I know for me, a lot of times I think of the big stories and they forget about kind of the little small pieces of those stories or other stories. Where are we supposed to be sharing these stories, and in what way? Because, um, I know for a lot of people, our first thought is, well, my kind of go to is social media. That’s where I kind of put myself out there. And with social media changes, everything is about how quickly you can share something. We have stories and reels and TikToks and all these things that are like, 60 seconds or less. So how do you share a story type content in a way that grabs attention and that’s a shorter format?

Speaker C: It’s a good question. The first thing I want to confess is I’m an undersharer. And so I have lots of untold stories myself. And, um, I have certainly not cracked the code on the best way to, um, turn stories into what the social media channels are going to love. But I’m very much about authenticity and truth and what works. And so, um, for me, the purpose of your stories is to connect and inspire. And so you can tell your story in person with just one person. I’ll share my stories in sales calls. I’ll share, um, my stories when I’m working with a client and I want to relate to them. And so I just want to say that you get to tell your story in any format and as an undershare. And a lot of people who end up in my circle and my community are also under sharers. It’s just that reminder that people want genuine and they want to connect with you. And if you share your story in whatever way you can, you get to you don’t have to hold that back and worry that you’re bothering, um, them or taking up their time or boring them. And so for social media, I think you got to get over the gatekeep tactics and things like that and just keep telling your story in whatever format. And I wouldn’t think I think you’ve got to find the format that works for you. Anytime that I’ve kind of really gotten into live video or interviews, those are my two times where stuff will come out naturally. Um, and so I’m much better off spending my time that way than trying to create a bunch of reels, personally, because reels are not my thing and they’re never going to resonate with my people because I’m not going to be in them fully. Whereas if I show up on a live video and I’m just like telling my story, that’s the best way for me to tell my story. And other people Might be great at telling their stories through Reals. And so it’s about finding your Natural I call it your natural currency. Um, like the way that you provide value without even having to try and then put your stories in there instead of thinking that you need to do it just because this is the hottest thing on Instagram right now. If you have the bandwidth to be playing with that kind of stuff and you enjoy it, awesome. Um, but if that’s going to completely take your day away and all you did was one reel, which would be my case, then you’re probably better off getting into some coffee dates with humans than actually telling your story that way. So that’s my piece on that.

Speaker B: I love that. I was just writing that down. Like find your natural currency. I think that’s so key. And I kind of talk about this when it comes to what’s your core content like, where do you kind of gravitate towards? And I think for me, podcasting has always been sort of my currency because I can just talk to people all day long. I mean, it gives me energy, it fills me up. I leave every conversation feeling like I learned something, I met somebody, I had a great time, and I can go about my day. And honestly, surprisingly, Instagram reels have kind of become, um, a little bit of my natural currency. I enjoy it more than I ever would have thought that I would. But I love that idea of just like it has to come naturally to some degree. There’s a learning curve for everything. But, yeah, everybody gravitates towards different things that they’re good at. And if you’re not good at real time conversations and doing live things may not be best for you. If you’re an amazing writer, which I envy people who have these incredible copywriting skills, then maybe it’s blogging, maybe it’s creating carousel posts, maybe it’s writing all the Facebook content, whatever it is. But yeah, find your natural Currency. I think that’s so key. So thank you for that jim of information there. Well, Lisa, this has been fascinating. I could talk branding and marketing and business with you all day long, like you were saying about how you eat, sleep and breathe. That’s how I feel, too. This is fascinating to me and I love it. But thank you so much for your time today. Thank you so much for sharing with us. Please tell everybody how, um, they can find you, how they can get in touch with you if they have questions or want to reach out to you.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, first of all, thank you so much for having me, Kendra. Yes, I would love if anybody is looking for clarity, messaging, positioning up leveling their business through their brand, they can find [email protected] or on social media at realizeyourbrand and you can book a consult, um, with me. Just we can connect and have a conversation. And so I look forward to connecting.

Website:

www.jenszpigiel.com

Social Media Links:

@jenszpigiel

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Transcript:

So today we’re going to kind of battle it out between websites and social media. I know this is when you’re starting a business. One of the things you kind of think about is what do I really need for my business? What are the things that are going to help me get off the ground quickly and efficiently without having to invest a lot of time or money into different programs and platforms? And there’s so many options out there. So today we’re going to kind of look at what comes first. Um, the chicken. I was going to say it’s not the chicken or the egg. • • You’re in my head. Get out of my head. • • • • It is social media or is it a website? So let’s just dive right in. I know, Katie, you have some pretty strong thoughts on this, so I’ll let you go first, and then I’ll come in and give you my thoughts.

Speaker B

Well, I’m going to give you guys a quick story. When I first started my business, • • it was because I was laid off from my job and I did not know what the next step would be. I had no idea. I thought I was going to get another corporate job doing marketing. Social media would be one of the side jobs that was going to be part of my tasks. But until I found that next job, • I was just going to see what would happen with my passion for social media. Could I actually make a business doing just social media? And so the very first thing I did, I had a three year old well, I guess two and a half year old at the time. I was pregnant with my second daughter, and it was 930 at night. And I said, okay, the very first thing I need to do is make a website. • • And • • this is the reason why I’m going to tell you guys I made a mistake. I should have sat down and claimed my domain. Sure. • • But I should have claimed all of my social media handles and found my spot on social media because social media, when used the right way when you grab your handles when you optimize your bio. It can really be that many website and • • • • Facebook is one of the most indexed websites from Google. So if I had started • with my social media accounts, writing the right type of captions, posting the right type of content that my ideal client customer was searching, I probably would have gotten more clients than by spending all those nights after my two year old went to bed creating and drafting and writing my own website. So I am team social media. • Kendra, what say you?

Speaker A

So I think all the things you just said are very important and valid and I hear you when I see you. • • I’m going to do my therapy voice. No, I think social media is definitely important and I know for me personally, I did the exact opposite. I did what you did too, but it worked well for me. I jumped right into a website first I grabbed my domain. I actually had a couple of domains that were variations of my business name. They all pointed back to my website, so I grabbed those first. I was fortunate that I didn’t have to worry about social media handles because my business name was kind of unique enough. But for me, • • I’m kind of team website because the website, I mean for my photography business, that is how • • 75% of my people find me is through my website, through a Google search, through SEO. • • There’s a lot of factors that go into being discovered online and through searching things like that. But I also will put like a little asterisk there and say, I think a lot of it depends on the type of business you have. It’s very different between and I kind of get to see both worlds. It’s very different between my locally based photography business that relies a lot on moms going on to Google and searching for a high school senior photographer for their daughter or when I was doing weddings, a bride searching for wedding photographer versus like this more global • • brand with my coaching business and the growth in the business brand where people aren’t just necessarily going in and searching for business coach. And if they are, it’s a much larger pool that I’m trying to compete with. So having the SEO and the website and things like that, it’s very different based on the type of business that you have. But I found that for me having a website as a Homebase where I could house all the contact information and create like blog posts, that was huge for me was having blog content that was a little bit longer format. Whereas with social media you have either limits on your text accounts, character accounts, • you’re uh, not going to write out a whole blog post on Instagram feed or post and have somebody actually read it. So there’s a lot of variations and I think there’s definitely pros and cons to both that. We’ll dive into, • • but • I’m going to go team website for this one. So we’re a, uh, team divided here. But that’s okay. I think having both perspectives is going to be really beneficial.

Speaker B

Well, and this is the thing. I know that there’s so many entrepreneurs who are just getting started • • or they’re thinking, okay, • • how do I get started? What is the very first thing that I should do? And • if someone had said this to me, if I had a mentor that said, hey, Katie, I think that you should do this first, I would have done things differently. I’m not shy to say that I made some big mistakes. I don’t think that doing the website first is a major mistake. But tied along with only doing the website, I didn’t even grab my social media handles. I didn’t even start posting on social media until • • • • • • • • • • the end of 2019. And after being in business for two full years. So that’s time that I lost on building my community around my business and my brand, because I made the mistake that so many small business owners make. I didn’t have time for my own business. I didn’t have time for it. I was so focused on helping my clients and my customers grow their businesses and brands, I put myself on the back burner. Oh, I’ll get to it someday in two years by where I missed out on that opportunity to really dive in and focus on growing my business and my brand on social media. Once I did, things changed.

Speaker A

Yeah. And I think one thing I want to add to that, too, is on the flip side of that, I see this happen a lot is I will have people who I see on posting in social media groups or clients that I’ve worked with. And I’ll say, okay, what have you been doing this week to work on your business? And they’ll be like, oh, well, I went and I updated the photos on my website, and I’ve been working on a couple of blog posts, • • or I’ve been creating one or two posts on Instagram a week. I think that it’s easy to for us to say • • I’m going to do things like build a website. Is that really • • the best use of your time, though? I guess • • • my point I’m going to get back to my point in a minute of website being good, too. But I think that you need to also say, okay, am I putting energy and effort into something in my business that’s not really helping me grow, helping me get out there and find clients and reach clients because I’m scared to do other things? Or is it because that’s how it was for me? I was like, oh, well, I’m quote, unquote working on my business • • • by going in and updating my website, but • • • • • it wasn’t really moving my business forward. Like, those updates. • • • Yeah. Those updates weren’t going to make a difference between whether the client a booked me or not, but it was just my way of kind of feeling like I was doing something when I wasn’t really doing something, if that makes sense.

Speaker B

Yeah. No, it really does, because you don’t realize how much time you end up spending on these tasks that are just simple updates. But really, it ends up being half an hour. And what could you have done productively in that half an hour? No, it makes perfect sense. I think that it’s a wormhole, a rabbit hole that we can end up falling into very easily where you think that you’re working on your business. And it’s not to say don’t pay attention to your website and making updates to it, especially if you haven’t updated your website since 1994. But I mean, there are certain things that are going to move the needle and do need to happen, whereas maybe updating the pictures can be put to the back burner. Now, as I said at the beginning, I am team social media. And it’s not just because I am a social media strategist. But • hear me out. We’re just going to stick with Instagram because if I go down the rabbit hole of all the different social media platforms.

Speaker A

We don’t have all day.

Speaker B

Yes, I know we don’t have all day, but this is just a 30 minutes podcast. So • • I think that if you decided to start, hey, I’m going to start • Next Step Social, or I’m going to start my crocheted quilt for baby dolls company, and it’s going to be my main business. I don’t know why I chose them, but that is I love it. I don’t even know how to crochet.

Speaker A

But anyway, call it Crochet Me Baby. There you go. I already have a business name ready to go for you. This is what I bring to the table. • • •

Speaker B

Okay, so I decided to launch the Instagram page Crochet Me Baby, and I can use Instagram as that mini website. There’s so many different ways that you can show up and build a community and build an audience on Instagram that I think that it can act as your website • • until you get your full blown website launched. Because there’s a lot of different website providers out there that you can use. Which one is the right one? There’s a lot of research that goes into it. So if you decide to just start with Instagram, you can show up in the feed posting pictures of your crocheted, uh, blankets for baby dolls. You can show up in reels showcasing you crocheting the blankets for baby dolls you can show up in IG lives talking about some of the different craft shows that you are going to be going to or some of the different orders that you’re working on. All of these different ways to show up in front of your audience, even if you haven’t even opened your doors yet. It’s going to build people that want to see what’s coming next, and it acts as your sales page. You can even set up a shop through Instagram now. It acts as your sales page. It can act as your behind the scenes getting to know you. I think that if you decide to go all in on social media, when you’re first getting started and you do it the right way, when you have your website done, you’re going to have people ready to buy from you. Okay.

Speaker A

So staying on the topic of social media, I do want to throw out a few questions for you here, because if I’m somebody who is brand new starting a business, Instagram • • can feel very overwhelming. There’s so much to it. I feel like there’s a lot you have to learn. And not to say that everybody starts from ground zero and builds up, but I think that • • • you have to have some skill and knowledge when it comes to how to effectively create a social media. Following an account that is productive and gets you sales and gets you followers and clients and builds connections. So what are the knowledge skills? What’s the prerequisites that someone needs to go into Instagram knowing how to do in order to be effective on social media, if that’s where they decide to kind of build their business.

Speaker B

So if they’ve decided to build their business on just Instagram, I think that you need to have some understanding and a strategy going into it, because one of the things that we talk about a lot, Kendra offline and in our Instagram posts are the different content pillars. How are you going to showcase what it is that you offer? And not everyone really has that understanding when they get started. So, I mean, obviously, signing up to work with a coach or a strategist will definitely • • • • • • • help you with that decision and with figuring out what you should be posting and how to build that audience. But I think that when you’re first getting started, it’s realizing that you are the brand. Uh, and nobody knows your logo yet. Nike didn’t become Nike overnight. It took them a while to get there. We all know the swoosh now. So if you are not Nike and you don’t have that brand and you’re I already forgot the name of our business. The Crochet baby.

Speaker A

There you go.

Speaker B

Nobody knows that logo yet. You have to be willing to show up as your face, with your face as your brand on these different platforms to give people that know, like and trust factor, they’re going to want to support you because they feel like they know you. I come back to this. My daughter, she is a Girl Scout, and I had her make a little video for it was going to just go to my mom and my dad, and I was going to have them share the video with their friends. She did really good at it. And so I posted it on my Facebook timeline. And it was just a 92nd video of her talking about the Girl Scout cookies. I had people that I haven’t talked to in years reach out to me and say, I will buy cookies from her. And it’s because she showed up and she looked cute and she was going through all the cookies and they had somebody to support. Now, I just would have written, hey, • • • my daughter is selling Girl Scout cookies. Come buy them from her. Let me know if you want any. I might have gotten half, maybe even a third of the people responding because they didn’t see her love of being a Girl Scout. They didn’t see how she was excited to be a part of this new community and to sell cookies for the first time. So when people can see that they’re going to want to support you. And I think that it’s the same with the business owner. I’m not saying to show up and be like, hey, everybody, I’m selling crocheted baby blankets now, Hooray and have the money start flowing in. But people will start seeing more and more and more of you. And they’re like, they’re done. Oh, I love that blanket. Oh, look at this one that she did. Oh, my nephew’s going to be having a baby soon. I want to get one of your blankets for him. And I can tell them I follow you on Instagram. I mean, that’s what I’m talking about.

Speaker A

Yeah. It’s hard for me to not jump in and be like, yeah, and this and this and this, because I agree with everything you’re saying. However, I also think that for some people, social media can be a barrier that they have, not that there’s a huge barrier to entry. Obviously, it’s free. You don’t have to pay for it. Whereas with websites, you usually are having a cost that comes with it. But it is very intimidating. And if it’s not done • well or not done, I don’t even say correctly. But if it’s not done in a way that, like you said, connects you to the people, then you could be spending a lot of time and energy on something that’s not going to move the needle very quickly. There’s definitely a flip side to every coin there is.

Speaker B

So tell me your flip side to why I should not focus on social media, which is still getting indexed by Google. It’s still searchable. It still gives you that social proof. It still can help you build your community of people who are ready to buy from you when that website is done. Tell me why I should do my website first.

Speaker A

Well, I think a lot of it for me was about • having • • something that felt like a Homebase for all of my information. Because if you go on to social media, you’re kind of seeing little bits and pieces of somebody’s business. I mean, yes, they can go to your feed, they can scroll through • again, you have one link in your Instagram bio. Where does that link go? Where are you sending people to? Because if you have an email list. Okay, well, okay, send it to an email list. I’ll give you that. I am an advocate for that.

Speaker B

But I just wanted to. • • • • • • • • • • •

Speaker A

Well, you know how to get to me. • • • • • But I think that they have that link there. And if I’m going to, let’s say, crochet me baby, if I find you on Instagram and I’m like, oh, my girls baby dolls be crocheted blankets for their birthdays, let me see what you have. And I go to the link in your bio because your content is fine. I see the blankets, but it’s harder for me to figure out how to buy one. Do I have to message you directly? I just feel like it’s a little more cumbersome. There’s a lot more steps, and we know that the idea of a confused mind doesn’t buy. And so the less • • difficult you can make it for your clients, the better. So if you have a website, because websites were way around longer, way longer than social media, it’s kind of like just something that everyone is asked, like, what’s your website? Where do I go? And I guess a lot of it also depends on your demographics of who you’re targeting. But I think a lot of people are going to be looking for • • a website. They’re going to be asking like, okay, where do you live on the internet? Social media is great. But again, we don’t own those platforms. What happens if Instagram goes down again? What happens if social media? What if your account gets shut down? Just like I talk about in the email list, having a website that you can direct people to, they can then go find you if they’re like, oh, her Instagram is gone. But I really wanted to buy this baby blanket. They still know where to go to find that baby blanket or whatever you’re offering. • • • • • • • • I heard it here first, folks.

Speaker B

Crocheted baby happens on the business.

Speaker A

So we need to grab that handle. • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •

Speaker B

I agree. Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg, man, you own my followers on Instagram and Facebook. Bill Gates, you on my LinkedIn, and Rohan and Paul, you own all my people on Clubhouse. So that is true. It’s true. We don’t own that community.

Speaker A

Yeah, • • • I’m not saying this is not. I know we said versus, but it all has to work together. And I think that having a website is just this foundational piece. It gives you a little bit of validity. So people are like, oh, okay, she’s not just someone who popped up on Instagram. And is it legit? Like, if I’m going to send you money to buy this baby blanket that costs $150?

Speaker B

Because, my God, these are some expensive stuff.

Speaker A

Hey, it’s handmade with lots of love, Katie. • • • • • • • • • • • • •

Speaker B

I agree. No, • • 100% agree. I have been. I can’t think of a good word. Snaked. I don’t know. • • • Yeah, I’ve been duped on Facebook. There’s been plenty of things where I’m like, perfect example. We were going to get some as we, um, have two little girls, and they love kicking the back of the car. Of the seats in the car.

Speaker UNK

Yes. • • •

Speaker B

I wanted to get some nice seat covers for my husband’s car whenever we were going up to the mountains because there was snow and mud and it was a mess. And so I wanted to get them some nice seat covers. But they were expensive. And Facebook, • • they knew I was searching for some seat covers. So what pops up in my feed but some car seatback covers, I saw them. I was like, these look legit. They’re leather. Look at all the spots that they can put their books and their water bottles, their leather, $35 for one, or if you order two, it’s for a Penny. So I was like, okay, well, 35 one, I’ll get two of them. That’s a steal. What shows up four months later not joking was felt the felt seatback covers that literally I could rip with my hands. • This was not what I mhm ordered. And who did I have to deal with? I had to deal with somebody that didn’t speak any English. That was a factory out of China. And I got duped. I didn’t do my research. I trusted their Facebook page, which, by the way, had zero posts. But they did have reviews. • • • • •

Speaker A

They were probably all fake. Exactly. • • •

Speaker B

And this is one of the things you can do that you can fake your pages, you can fake your reviews, you can fake your followers. But I went to their page, I was like, oh, they just haven’t posted. They probably just do ads. They look real. They have plenty of reviews. And I got duped. So I definitely feel like, yeah, you’re kind of right, Kendra.

Speaker A

Yeah, well, I mean, not to say that you can’t have a fake website, too, because there are things I’ve come across that too. The same exact thing almost. You’re like, okay, I’m looking for this thing. You go on Facebook, you see an ad, you click on it, it takes you to a website somewhere. It all looks legit • • • this day and age. Unfortunately, that’s just the case. You’re going to have those people who are out there scamming you. But I do think that as a small business, one way that you can kind of say to your followers, like, hey, I am legit is that you don’t just have just an Instagram account or just a Facebook page. You need to have more than that in order for people to say like, okay, this is somebody who has put in the time and energy to create a business. You have a URL, you have a great looking website. You have social proof with social media. • • All these things kind of go in together. But I do think when it comes to websites too, it’s not as simple as just saying, okay, I’m going to go create a website. And I’m curious, when you’ve created your first website, do you remember what platform you used?

Speaker B

It was Squarespace.

Speaker A

Okay. And what was your experience with Squarespace?

Speaker B

So I use Squarespace because I didn’t really have a ton of training on creating a website. It was very easy to drag and drop it. I could buy my URL directly through the Squarespace website, and it made things really easy to use templates. A year later, I went and got certified with WordPress creation. So I know how to build and maintain an entire WordPress site. Now. It’s great just to know how to do it. I don’t do any website building, just for the record, but I wanted to know how to do it. But I still have my next step. Socialcommunications.com is still on Squarespace, just because the idea of transferring everything over to WordPress is extremely daunting.

Speaker A

Okay, so this is my. • I will give you my kind of what you should do if you’re thinking • • maybe you already have your social set up and now you’re ready for a website or you’re like, well, no, I really want to build that good, solid foundation of a website. Not all website platforms are created equal. It’s kind of like when I talk about email marketing platforms, you have, like, your mail chimps of the world, which are they’re cheap, they’re easy. Everybody knows to go to them. Everybody thinks that where they should go first. But once you start getting into it, you realize pretty quickly this is not the best fit for me long term. And then you have your high end • active campaign entrepreneur that cost more, but they have all the bells and whistles. They may not be for the • starting up email marketing person. • Websites are the same way. The one that I see a lot of people talking, um, about is Wix, because it is, I believe it’s free completely. I think, or maybe there’s like a small fee, uh, but it’s fairly cost effective. And they tout themselves as being like, quick and easy. It’s easy for beginners. Here’s the problem that I have, um, with Wix, because especially, I know a lot of photographers that have used Wix. One, you have very limited control over the design of your website. So if you are someone who visually wants a really nice website, it’s not going to work for you. And two, you don’t have SEO control. So this is a big thing. And for anyone who is not familiar, SEO is search engine optimization. So it is how easily are you able to be discovered if somebody goes into Google and searches for a keyword? If someone says, I’m looking for a social media manager in Denver, Colorado, how easily will Katie’s company come up? And so that’s SEO. And if you don’t have control of your SEO settings and features. It’s going to be really hard for them to find you because your website lives on their platform. So unless somebody is specifically searching for your website name, you’re probably not going to come up necessarily. So Square Space is actually, I don’t think it’s a terrible one. You do have more control over your SEO features. It’s kind of like what I would say the next step up. You hear it talked a lot about, • • I know a lot of podcasts. I listen, um, to • • • Squarespace are sponsors of their podcast. They use them for their websites. It’s a good, it is easy to use drag and drop. • • • • • I’ve used WordPress and I love WordPress. It’s the most robust website platform. You have complete control of almost everything you do, uh, on there. However, it is not something that you can just like log in at night by yourself when your two and a half year old is on the bed. And yes, no, it requires a lot more knowledge, skill • you have to have. A lot of times you pair it with like a Profoto or I use Show it, which is another platform that I really love. It gives you kind of one of those in between where it gives you the SEO functionality, but you also have a lot of super easy drag and drop. I actually have helped a couple people design their show at sites and it’s kind of fun for me to be on the creative end. But • the big thing is when you are starting out your website, • • • if you know that you have a pretty big vision of what you want your site to be and it’s not just a simple information based, you probably need to have somebody help you do it. Because this is one of those areas where • • • • • • • • if you really want it to be done well and you want it to look a certain way, you’re going to spend so much time and energy and frustration trying to get it done yourself when you could hire somebody else to do it for you and it’s done. Now, I know that’s an investment • you’re including a cost there, but it’s worth it if that’s where you feel like you’re going to get the best return on your investment there. I will say one more thing is domains. Go get your domains. Like, if you have a business name like Katie and I have just discovered, trying to get a domain for our business, uh, besties brand that we’re building here, it’s not always going to be available the way you want it. So if you have a business company, just like Katie was saying with grabbing those Instagram handles, those social media handles, if you are like, okay, I know I’m going to want to build this website. I want it to have this domain. Go get it, go buy it now. Because someone else is going to snag it up and sit on it and try to charge you a ton of money in the future for it. So go grab those domains while you can.

Speaker B

I agree with everything that you said, Kendra, and I think that what it really comes down to is when you are ready to start your own business, • • there’s a lot of thought that needs to go into it other than what is it called and what are my logos going to be? There’s a lot of different steps that you need to take and all of them need to be done intentionally and with a strategy in mind. So grabbing those domains, figuring out do you have the budget to have a website designer build you a SEO strong website that people are going to be clicking on and buying from you from? Are you ready on social media? Are you promoting yourself out there? Are you showing up and building a community around your brand and your business? Are you ready to sell and have your Instagram Act as that many websites so people can learn more about you and your product? All of these things are part of the bigger picture and they all have to be done intentionally. So that way when you’re ready when you’re ready to open your doors and say come buy from me, you have an audience that’s ready to buy from you both through search and organically. • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •